If your accounting team is playing detective every month, you don’t have a bookkeeping problem, you have an information problem. 

In this episode, Wade and Stephen break down exactly where financial data gets stuck in your construction business: receipts riding around in a foreman’s truck, disjointed payroll systems, late billings, missing W-9s, and change orders that never make it into the system. 

You’ll learn how capturing the right information at the right moment — with the right tools — can eliminate the chaos and give you real-time visibility into your jobs and cash flow.

Sign up for group coaching to get your Cash Flow MRI

Topics covered on this episode include:

• 00:00 Accounting Crime Scene
• 01:05 Software Isnt The Fix
• 02:38 Receipts In The Truck
• 05:23 Real Time Answers
• 07:01 Course Announcement
• 07:41 Job Cost Trust Issues
• 08:53 Compliance Paperwork Pains
• 10:19 Purchase Orders And Changes
• 13:06 Cash Flow And Billing
• 15:19 Project Manager Visibility
• 18:38 One Integrated System
• 21:52 Consultation And Wrap Up

LINKS

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FIND US ONLINE
Wade Carpenter, CPA, CGMA | CarpenterCPAs.com
Stephen Brown, Bonding Expert | SuretyAnswers.com

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TRANSCRIPT

Wade Carpenter: [00:00:00] Every month, contractors ask their accounting teams to investigate a crime scene. Here’s a credit card charge. Here’s half a receipt. We think it belongs to the [00:00:10] Johnson job. Somebody may have texted the details six weeks ago. Now, just go reconstruct what happened and tell us whether we made any money.[00:00:20]

This isn’t bookkeeping. This is forensic accounting. Welcome to the Contractor Success Forum. Today, we’re talking about why so many accounting problems begin as information problems, [00:00:30] and how capturing information at the right moment could eliminate the chase entirely. I’m Wade Carpenter with Carpenter & Company CPAs, alongside Stephen Brown with [00:00:40] McDaniel-Whitley Bonding and Insurance.

And Stephen, we’re gonna set the scene today. You’re gonna be the contractor owner, and grill me with your pain points. [00:00:50] Why does it suck being a contractor?

Stephen Brown: I don’t even know what you’re talking about, Wade. Seriously, this is what I’m paying you for, isn’t it? Huh? I mean, every time [00:01:00] I call you, you got more questions.

Just tell me. Answer my question, Wade.

Wade Carpenter: We have questions because we’re trying to give you some good information. You know, you may have the [00:01:10] best software,

Stephen Brown: but- I bought the software you told me to buy, Wade, and it’s just sitting there. I don’t know why in the world you made me buy that crap [00:01:20] anyway. It was way too expensive.

Wade Carpenter: Sometimes the underlying issue is really not the accounting software, it’s the information flow. And that’s what I want to talk about today, is [00:01:30] like how do we solve this thing? We’ve done some episodes the last few weeks on leverage, and these contractors that are a one-man band, or they don’t have a team, or even if they do [00:01:40] have a team, they never seem to get on top of their books, no matter what.

Even if they got the best contractor, they got $100,000 controller or more. [00:01:50] So this episode, I’m hoping to walk through some of the places where this information gets stuck, and what you can do about

Stephen Brown: it. Bring it on. I agree with you. I [00:02:00] don’t always know where my books stand, and it’s frustrating because I gotta build this job.

I got so many things that I’ve got to do and worry about. [00:02:10] And you would think I’ve got my accounting folks and I’ve got you, and you want me to spend more money on more accounting when I already pay them to do their job. So [00:02:20] somebody’s not doing their job. I need to chew some butt because somebody’s not doing their job.

But at the same time, I know I’ve gotta have that, and I know that [00:02:30] if I can figure out how to smooth things over, at least this part of my construction business will run smoothly, right?

Wade Carpenter: Some of the things I hear from you [00:02:40] is that you don’t know what that receipt was, and you know, it’s like, okay, it was six weeks ago, and you don’t remember.

Stephen Brown: When we don’t know where a receipt is, Wade, it just sits [00:02:50] there until somebody figures it out. I ain’t got time to figure it out.

Wade Carpenter: Where is that receipt?

Stephen Brown: It’s supposed to be electronic, all right? And they’re supposed to [00:03:00] assign a number to that project so it ties the receipt to it. But it’s not done. Hey, my project manager had stack of receipts that thick stuck up in the bio service truck.[00:03:10]

I was like, “What the hell? You know we’ve got to pay these things, don’t you? And we’ve got to bill the customer.” Ah, just idiots. I don’t know.

Wade Carpenter: That’s a common ask. We need to know what the [00:03:20] information is, and that’s what we see all the time, is it’s riding around in that foreman’s truck. And that person that’s holding that receipt, they know the answer at the moment that [00:03:30] they did it or they went and bought it.

But a week later or a month later, they don’t remember. From my perspective, what we need to do is be able to [00:03:40] capture that immediately. And there are receipt apps out there, but a lot of them do not really go to the cost code level. And so this is why [00:03:50] we’ve had a lot of problems getting the information and why we’ve actually had to start building our own receipt type apps that can actually [00:04:00] do the cost code level on your cost codes.

That’s what I see, is if we can get something in the foreman’s hands, when they do it, [00:04:10] snap a picture, put it in just two seconds. This is the job. This is what it is. It seems to help the flow a lot better.

Stephen Brown: So you can do that for me. I guess what frustrates me [00:04:20] so much is every time I ask something, accountants ask me more questions.

It’s like I just asked you one question, and then all of a sudden there’s all [00:04:30] these things that I gotta try to answer, and I don’t know the answer. And by the way, I’m not an accountant, I’m a contractor.

Wade Carpenter: Yeah. And again, at the time you knew what they [00:04:40] were, but you put a deposit in the bank or whatever, but you may have known what customer that was, but if we in accounting don’t know that, how are we supposed to get [00:04:50] to it?

Stephen Brown: If you don’t know it and I don’t know it, that’s a bad thing, isn’t it?

Wade Carpenter: Yeah. We end up sending emails, and those emails get unread. You’re [00:05:00] working all day. How can we work with that better? I know you probably live on your phone. So if we had an app, if we could just ask you the [00:05:10] questions and give you the context and say, “This is the choices and this is what we think it is,” or what job does it go to, and not wait for six weeks later, don’t you [00:05:20] think that’s a little easier for you to remember when it happened?

Stephen Brown: Absolutely. And it’s not just about my memory, Wade. It’s about the fact that I’ll look at [00:05:30] accounting statement and I just know in my gut it’s wrong. This is not right. This cannot be the cost allocated. Somebody’s made a mistake. That’s my first [00:05:40] reaction, Wade. But then I go back and say my whole purpose is to have an accounting system that gives me right answers so when a job’s bleeding money, I can do something about it.

Wade Carpenter: [00:05:50] So basically you’re saying you don’t know where your books stand?

Stephen Brown: All the time it seems to me, Wade, that I’m looking at my statements and there’s just something that doesn’t make sense. [00:06:00] And then I find out later that hadn’t been billed yet, or we took that cost on earlier. It costs more for, you know, get the job started than we thought.

It’s always [00:06:10] some excuse, but I need real time information and I need it to be so accurate that I need to plan before this stuff happens. [00:06:20] I swear, Wade, it feels like all I’m doing is just reacting, and I’m sick of it.

Wade Carpenter: Oh, I get it. A lot of accountants are out there talking about dashboards and whatever, but a [00:06:30] dashboard is only as useful as the underlying information is.

And if it’s incomplete, if it doesn’t have… You know, I don’t know if you had a bookkeeper or [00:06:40] whatever and it’s always behind and you’re not trusting the numbers, that’s the first requirement is you gotta have the system in real time and [00:06:50] having it up to date and accurate. Otherwise, a dashboard could… You could talk about that all day long, but it’s only useful if it’s real and you trust it, right?

Stephen Brown: [00:07:00] Absolutely.

Course Promo

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The live cohort starts by putting your actual numbers on the table with a Cash Flow MRI, [00:07:30] so you can see exactly where your money’s going. Limited seats are available to keep the course hands-on.

Link’s in the show notes, and there’s 10% off for members of our podcast [00:07:40] community.

All right, back to it.

So another thing, I know you talked about your project managers and job costing one time.

Stephen Brown: All right. Here’s another thing. I don’t trust these job cost reports [00:07:50] I just don’t trust them

Wade Carpenter: Is it because they don’t look right, or what is it that you’re saying?

Stephen Brown: They don’t look right, and I just don’t think they’re being charged [00:08:00] to the right job.

And also, I think too much is being allocated in overhead toward this one particular project, or something’s going on. I don’t know.

Wade Carpenter: [00:08:10] I know you told me about those credit card charges and getting those turned in. And as far as the payroll is a disjointed system. So if you got this outside payroll [00:08:20] system and it’s not all tied in, you don’t really have these good job costing numbers.

Going back to the receipts, if there’s riding around the job foreman’s truck, you’re right [00:08:30] to not be able to trust that. We can say, yes, we reconciled the books, but if it’s not costed to the job, you’re not trusting it. From my perspective, to give you the right [00:08:40] thing, a properly generated report really needs to be not just mathematically accurate, but as up to date in real time as you can get it.

Stephen Brown: Well, I love [00:08:50] it. You know, and I love the idea of the dashboard you were talking about. But what about just things that always are frustrating me and my accounting department? I can’t [00:09:00] get my W-9s out till mid-January. My certificates of insurance, man, I haven’t got time to keep up with that. Certificates for all my subs, I [00:09:10] always seem to have to put that together when the audit comes from the insurance company.

And then getting these lien waivers done. That’s just another headache I have. And then [00:09:20] how do I know really when someone’s due to be paid? They’re yelling for their money. How do I know? And how can I immediately say to them, “This is why you’re not getting paid”? [00:09:30] This is just frustrating, Wade. It’s every year these things come up, and I like to know what I could do about it.

Wade Carpenter: From my perspective, I think a lot of times contractors [00:09:40] need some kind of more real time, like keeping up with their vendors. And a lot of these extra, like the BuilderTrends of a… Not knocking these other software, but they’re disjointed [00:09:50] from the accounting system. We’ve actually built on a system for tracking workers’ comp.

When do they come due, and when are they expiring? And so that we’re [00:10:00] not scrambling next time- It’s time to do that workers’ comp audit. I know from my team’s perspective, trying to get 1099s out the door, we’re trying to get these W-9s, and if [00:10:10] we get that kind of stuff as we go and we’re tracking it, it makes it easier for everybody.

Stephen Brown: They should be doing it year-round, not just at the end of the year.

Wade Carpenter: Again, a [00:10:20] lot of these systems are so disjointed, and, you know, I know you were complaining about those purchase order systems, and, and you’re not the only one that’s told me you hate purchase order systems. [00:10:30] But why is that? Because somebody had to call in and get a number, and it’s just a hassle, or?

Stephen Brown: I don’t know, it just seems like more red tape. I swear, Wade, that’s all I deal [00:10:40] with in my construction company is just red tape, forms, more forms to fill out, more paperwork, just more bullshit. I’m sick of it. I’ll tell you another [00:10:50] thing, Wade. Change orders ought to be like Christmas. Why can’t a project manager seem to understand this is a good thing, now [00:11:00] get it in writing and get it in our system?

They don’t care. They’re getting paid. I don’t know what to do about that

Wade Carpenter: Two good points right there. The purchase orders, if you had [00:11:10] it so streamlined that you wouldn’t have to have somebody call in or do a bunch of paperwork, you just do it on your phone and click it right there when you’re at Lowe’s or whatever it is.

[00:11:20] If it made it streamlined, then your accounting system doesn’t have to bother you on the other end to ask you what this job is, like, how to code it, what it goes to, and [00:11:30] how to… So it streamlines everything. As far as change orders, that’s another thing that, you know, keeping up with it and making sure that they’re billed and that kind of stuff.[00:11:40]

Most of these systems are really not built to do that. Your QuickBooks Online is not built to really train this kind of thing. That’s where we had to build on [00:11:50] systems for these contractors one by one. And when we get it into a system that is all meshed together and you have good information flowing, it streamlines [00:12:00] things for you and me.

Stephen Brown: So you think there’s a system that would allow me, too, to be able to keep an eye on my project managers from afar without constantly [00:12:10] having to worry about being in the job trailer chewing butt?

Wade Carpenter: I’m sure you’re probably gonna do that anyway a little bit. But when you have a system where we’re not having to bother [00:12:20] you, and I know that’s part of the thing, but if they got it right there on their phone to clock in on the job or something like that, and streamlining those things.

But [00:12:30] again, I’m not knocking any of these ClockShark, Clockify. There’s all kind of different time tracking things. But it’s typically disjointed from [00:12:40] your payroll system. And yes, there are syncs in and out, but a lot of times they’re not seamless, and so there’s usually steps in [00:12:50] between. And a lot of times what we find is people are manually typing stuff up, and when it’s disjointed, the system breaks or something, and you’re not getting your payroll job posted.

[00:13:00] And depending on the type of construction you do, labor can be a huge part of Your job cost

Stephen Brown: I just have trouble wanting to know where my cash is. [00:13:10] Seriously, where is it? I got all this work going on, and it’s like I’m always strapped for cash. I don’t know. It’s driving me nuts.

Wade Carpenter: Well, again, [00:13:20] that’s another thing.

We try to get the cash in the door. So let’s just talk about the billing side of it. A lot of times the project managers are working up the bill, and then it sits on their desk, and it’s [00:13:30] got to get to accounting and get put into the system. And when we can get that a lot more real time, we can tell you a lot better, okay, here’s the cash that should be coming in when you can…[00:13:40]

Whether they’re paying you in 60, 90 days, or whatever it is, at least you got it in the system. The same thing with the job cost. You got to have those costs in the system, [00:13:50] and you may not want to be out there paying them, but you really need to know how much is out there sitting in front of you before you can forecast and say, “Yeah, I’ve got money to go [00:14:00] splurge on that truck or whatever that you want to buy.”

When is the retainage coming in? And being able to track those kind of things.

Stephen Brown: Yeah, I appreciate it. And I’m sorry if I sound a little harsh, [00:14:10] but I’m telling you, it’s tough running a construction company, and a lot of people just don’t get that Here I’ve got all this software. I’m trying to figure out how it’s even [00:14:20] speaking to each other, or whether I’ve just wasted my money.

It seems like I can understand if I’ve got a tool, like a piece of equipment to get the work done. That’s a piece of cake. [00:14:30] Why is all of my systems in my office not working together? It just seems like everything creates another question. That’s why I like being out [00:14:40] on the job. I can get that done. Why is this so frustrating to me, man?

Wade Carpenter: Again, whether it’s the accounting system or these tack on system like Buildertrend or Procore, [00:14:50] JobTrend, not knocking any of them, but the way they’re built, they are typically… Maybe you’re connecting to QuickBooks Online or [00:15:00] something like that, and there’s a sync back and forth that breaks all the time.

A lot of times what we’re doing is, whether we’re fixing the sync or whatever, [00:15:10] it just doesn’t work. And too often I see contractors putting it in twice, or it’s in the accounting system, it doesn’t get over into there. So [00:15:20] that leads to one of the problems that I hear, because I know you’re talking about your project managers wanting to see where they were.

Stephen Brown: Yeah. What are they up to? I mean, everything you’re talking about, you’re [00:15:30] describing my company exactly. These are the frustrations I’ve got.

Wade Carpenter: Well, your frustration, I know you said, “Well, I don’t want the project manager being in my QuickBooks. [00:15:40] I don’t trust them. I don’t want them seeing anything.” How do I actually lock them down to all this stuff and give them real time work where the numbers really are?

Stephen Brown: I don’t [00:15:50] know. It seems to me like project managers are not gonna leave and start their own construction company when they see how much extra cost and risk are involved in a [00:16:00] project. That’s when someone leaves me and wants to start their own company, when they think that I’m getting fat and happy based on all their hard work.

I don’t want them to [00:16:10] know that, but at the same time, if I wanted to have a good project manager, I want them to get a bonus based on their performance And you go in and you say, “This is the [00:16:20] profit we have set for this job. You bring it in on time and this profit, there’s a bonus of X amount to you.”

That’s what makes it profitable being a project manager, and [00:16:30] that’s where they need this data. The days are just over where I could keep these project managers in the dark and they just accepted a paycheck. They’re getting smarter, and they want [00:16:40] more from me. I don’t like it, but I think it’s the way I’m gonna have to go, Wade.

Wade Carpenter: Again, they need to know where they are on the budget, and they may think they’re doing fine, or they keep it on their own [00:16:50] spreadsheet or their own scratchpad or whatever they’ve got, Excel, and they may not be thinking about all the extra stuff, the labor or whatever.

Stephen Brown: But- I’ll turn in my [00:17:00] receipts, it’s gonna make my project look better, Wade, if I’m a project manager.

Wade Carpenter: That’s another point. And whether you are looking at the visibility or they [00:17:10] are, that way we can hold project managers accountable. But for a project manager to properly do their job and bring it in on budget, they need the information. To know

Stephen Brown: where they stand, I [00:17:20] guess.

Wade Carpenter: Yeah. Another thing we talk about all the time, you always wanna know where your money is.

You were just asking me, like, why is there no cash? Is that something you do, is check your bank balance [00:17:30] every day?

Stephen Brown: I brought that up with you earlier, Wade. It’s like, where’s my cash? I mean, I don’t know. I don’t know. I know I’m out here working my butt [00:17:40] off, and yet this bank balance is… I’m like, oh my gosh, seriously?

You forgot to bill this? Honestly, you forgot to [00:17:50] bill this? Come on, that’s your job. It’s like, “But you don’t understand how much billing I have to do.” I don’t need excuses. I need you to bill it. This just, just drives [00:18:00] me crazy. Then I got disputes with the owners. I send in my pay request, like last week I sent one in for $175,000.

Every bit of it I was owed. [00:18:10] They decided to only pay me 75. Now I gotta argue with them about that. I don’t have time for that crap either, Wade.

Wade Carpenter: Just know where you are too, [00:18:20] as well as knowing what money’s gotta go out the door is half the battle. And so that’s where, you know, I feel like if you had the [00:18:30] real time, like this is where we are, this is what’s already been committed, and what’s gotta go out the…

Don’t you think you sleep a little better at night?

Stephen Brown: Yeah. These are all great ideas, [00:18:40] but I mean, what are you proposing we can do about it? You’re talking about what you could do that might be better. What are you suggesting?

Wade Carpenter: Where I’m going with this is the fact [00:18:50] that all these things are interrelated For you to get this good information, you are in the field, you wanna be doing stuff, you don’t wanna be bothered.

But [00:19:00] there’s a disconnect in whether you’ve got a team that’s, you know… We need to make it as simple as possible as well as give you the real time information. And so this is [00:19:10] where I have been going with it. As I mentioned with the receipts thing, we end up building one-off apps for receipt management or purchase orders [00:19:20] or a time sheet import.

And so what we’ve done to mitigate that is we think about all the places, [00:19:30] like we’re texting you, we’re emailing you, we’ve got a portal to upload stuff, and then we’re trading emails back and forth about how to code all this stuff. If we can get this in [00:19:40] one place where you can see it on your phone, you can have a dashboard on your phone, or the team can send you, “These are our questions really quick,” and you say yes, no, [00:19:50] two-word answer, that’s all we need to keep this rolling.

Stephen Brown: Oh, yeah. Your dashboard tell me individually if I wanna check on each job?

Wade Carpenter: Yes, it’s in there.

Stephen Brown: Man, that would be [00:20:00] awesome.

Wade Carpenter: And it’s real time synced to the accounting data.

Stephen Brown: This sounds great, Wade, but I haven’t got time to do all this stuff. I really don’t. And I want to, okay? What you [00:20:10] say makes perfect sense to me.

I wanna get this done. I just ain’t got time for it. What do I need to do?

Wade Carpenter: That’s where I was going with this is that a lot of the times that [00:20:20] we take on somebody new, they’ve never had support. Before COVID, somebody’s gotta be in my office doing all this stuff, and that’s one thing. But what I’ve come to realize, [00:20:30] it doesn’t matter if the person’s in the office or they’re across the country from you.

If you’re not getting good data, if it’s too hard to get it to them, it’s still gonna ride [00:20:40] around that foreman’s truck. If you don’t have good systems or you’ve got this disjointed third-party software… I’m gonna stop using people’s names, but they need to be all [00:20:50] integrated. And so that’s where we’ve been going and building.

We had a exploration with the team over the summer and again, we’re finding we were building all these things [00:21:00] specifically for construction, and we’ve gotten pretty good at that. And our thought was we’re gonna put this all together in one offering and hopefully eliminate a lot of [00:21:10] the stress between the accounting team and getting you good information and you having to answer emails at midnight So that’s where I was going with [00:21:20] this.

We’ve been rolling this out in various stages. Maybe in some future episode we’ll demo it, but whether it’s you wanna talk to me or whatever, do these [00:21:30] things resonate with you? If you’re not getting what you need, look at the system and is your system really set up to be done properly? We talk about it [00:21:40] all the time.

They never have the chart of accounts or the cost code structures. And get the system right, but even if you got the system right, you got to have flow of information. That’s where [00:21:50] we’re trying to revolutionize the flow in construction.

Stephen Brown: Well, I tell you what I do know you and your team know construction.

You understand what we’re going through, and you understand accounting, [00:22:00] taxes, and all that stuff. I’d really like to talk to you about this for my business and what it looks like, and what you might charge me to make this a [00:22:10] reality. Because let me tell you something, if you’re gonna just take my information and farm it out to somebody in China or France, that doesn’t cut it for me.

I kinda need to know that [00:22:20] you understand construction. I’m gonna be dealing with you and your folks, because this is the backbone. One of my friends, they held his data hostage. It’s all [00:22:30] almost too much crap for me to handle right now, and I just wanna do what I like to do. Hey, I like selling, I like producing projects, and I [00:22:40] like seeing my company grow.

I guess just like a subcontractor, maybe I need to think about hiring you as a subcontractor to do this for me, because I want it to happen, and I’m just [00:22:50] sick of my old accountant just telling me, “You need to get this software.” And then you need to train your people. The problem is your bookkeeper can’t give me the information I’m asking for.

I [00:23:00] need you to tell me what it is. It’s making me crazy. I can’t tell him something I don’t know. I’m not an accountant, okay? I can’t tell [00:23:10] him something I don’t know. So what do I need to do? When could we talk? How do I contact you?

Wade Carpenter: You can go to carpenterCPAs.com if you wanna do that. But like I said, [00:23:20] if you’re tired of chasing these receipts or waiting on job information, rebuilding payroll allocations, and finding purchase orders and all this stuff, [00:23:30] we are really actively streamlining that kind of stuff, and I’m really excited about where we’re heading with all this stuff.

If anybody wanted to do a free [00:23:40] consultation about what it could look like, if you’ve never gotten your Procore set up properly or, you know, whatever, I see contractors all the time spend all this money for years [00:23:50] on software, and they’re no better along than when they started with it. And so I guess my point today is looking at the [00:24:00] systems.

If it’s not working for you, maybe you should be thinking about something different. Think about what is it that you have to chase every week to get that information? [00:24:10] So for the contractor to run a proper business, these systems, they gotta work. They gotta quietly work and not interrupt your day and everything.

That’s where it [00:24:20] needs to go.

Stephen Brown: Yeah. Amen to that. That’s a good point. Look, it’d be nice if something in life was just a little bit easier, and I’m sick of chasing this stuff. I got the same [00:24:30] problems coming up over and over again. And when I call you for this consultation, or I’m trying to explain to my accountant what I wanna get accomplished, man, I don’t know…

I don’t even [00:24:40] know what questions I need to ask to get this done and what you’re talking about. I kinda have an idea, but it’s just frustrating. I just don’t want you talking over my head, Wade, because [00:24:50] I know you know your stuff, but honestly, I don’t, and I’d rather be educated than lectured to. And I can handle that, and so can my staff.

Wade Carpenter: Well, I [00:25:00] completely get it, and to your point earlier, we’re right here in Stockbridge, Georgia. My team does construction. That’s all we do. That’s all we take, and that’s how [00:25:10] we can actually develop our own type software for this kind of stuff. And I really think that’s something that’s really missing in the construction industry, is [00:25:20] how do we streamline this information?

If anybody’s interested, I’d love to talk to you about it. If you guys had some thoughts about what we talked about today, or pains or whatever, I’d love to see your [00:25:30] comments or questions down below. We talk about construction cash flow and running a successful construction business every single week, and we will see you on the next [00:25:40] [00:25:50] show.